CAGEPRISONERS: Could you introduce yourself?

DETAINEE BF: Yeah. My name’s BF. Do you want me to say my…

CP: No! And I think that’s the point really, isn’t it? That we can’t say your name because you’re under an order right?

BF: My name’s BF. I’ve currently just been put on a control order which basically affects where I go, what I do. Can’t work. Can’t do certain jobs etc.

CP: Are you a British citizen?

BF: I am. Yes. I’m a British citizen.

CP: And what were you doing prior to this control order.

BF: I was working and when I was coming back from work, I was going to the gym, training, working out, coming back from gym, spending time with my family, my kids, going to the park, taking my wife out to dinner and the kids out to dinner. Just what normal average people do everyday. That’s what my daily life was…. I didn’t really tend to see my friends too much. Once a week I would see friends and we’d go out for dinner and stuff like this.

CP: Were you part of any group or any organization?

BF: I’ve actually never been part of any… any groups or any organization. Actually, tell a lie, I have been part of one group. Which was…I was a Sufi of Nakhshbandi fiqh and I was with them for three years and then I left them just because I didn’t like the way the conducted themselves. And then after that I wasn’t part of any groups. I was just another Muslim.

CP: Where did this all begin for you – because, you know, it didn’t just happen that one day you were put on a control order. Where did this whole thing start?

BF: Well, the first time that it was bought to light for me was…I was travelling to Pakistan with my Grandma and I got stopped at the airport and they held me there for about four hours coz you know you go to the airport seven hours before you pick up the flight. Pakistani people always like to go a bit earlier. So I was there…we got there about five hours early. And they held me there for about four and a half hours, four hours, something like this. And they were questioning me about, “what was the money for?” and they basically said we’re from Special Branch, New Scotland Yard and we suspect that you are going to go fund terrorism organisations even though I was with my Grandma and I said “No I haven’t got any terrorist links”.

CP: Where were you going?

BF: Karachi. Basically that six grand was for…we’ve got a house there which was on rent and the people who were renting the house were moving out, so the money was going to be used to do up the house and then put new tenants in. That was my main reason for going because my grandma can’t do it and she’s not very healthy. My dad couldn’t go because of work so because I’m the oldest son, I was the one that had to go. So that was the first time it came to light that these guys are onto me. Because they knew that I was coming. They had a photograph of me waiting. They were actually waiting for me by the immigration desk. So that’s when it first came to light.

CP: What kind of questions were they asking you? Was it just about the money or…?

BF: They asked me about my school. They go you know we know you like to do boxing, you know, keep fit why’s this?… what sort of groups are you with? What do you think of foreign policies? What do think about the war on Iraq? And etc

CP: And were they abusive in any way?

BF: They weren’t actually no. They weren’t no, they weren’t abusive, in no way they were… they were just, they just they were actually quite polite to be honest with you. They tried to be very friendly and tried to coach information out of me. I don’t know what sort of information they were trying to get, but they were just trying to basically… they were trying to get something out of me by asking questions like, “what do you think of the war in Iraq? What do you think on, what do you think of the British army? What do you think? Questions like this.

CP: Did they just release you straight after?

BF: What they said to me, they said, “we don’t want you to travel and the reason why we’ve come is to take you your passport and not let you travel. So I said, “Ok. I won’t travel, but I want you to compensate me for the money that I’ve paid. For this ticket. At which point they said, “look ok we’ll let you travel but we’re taking all your money off you. That’s the only condition that we’re going to let you travel. So I said, oh forget it, I’ll just let me keep my money, they said, “No, we’re taking your money off you anyway.”

CP: And did you legally challenge that or did you ask what law it was they were taking your money off you?

BF: Yeah, I said you can’t do this. They said under the Prevention of Terrorism Act we can do it. And it’s for you to prove this money is yours, it’s not for us to prove that this money is used for terrorism. It’s for you to prove that it’s not being used in crime.

CP: And did you manage to get your money back?

BF: what happened was basically, it took about six months and we won the case. I got the money back with extra money. That they gave us, they gave it. I think it was £250, £300 extra on top.

CP: Ok

BF: And from there, that’s it, the case was finished.

CP: And did you feel that that was the end of it for you at that time?

BF: No honestly, I knew they were following me around because I used to catch them out. People videoing me when I would come outside the house, and funnily enough just before I got put on this control order about a week before, I saw this Caucasian male in a car was it, with a video and I went up to the car and I knocked on the window and I said, “Excuse me mate, do you know where Islamic impressions is?” And he was pretending to be on the phone. And I looked on his lap he had a log which was time, dates, etc, And what he done was before he spoke to me he put his hand on the passenger seat and got the…got the camera and put it underneath the seat. And then he spoke to me, but he didn’t speak to me with the window down, he wouldn’t put the window down, he left the window up and he said, “sorry, I just stopped to make a phone call.” So, I knew that there was something fishy going on because they were following me around, but I wasn’t really bothered about it because I know that I’m not doing nothing wrong.

But, I know that there were, they used to come to my mum’s house and they’d be like different sort of cars outside my mum’s house keeping an eye on my mum’s house, keeping an eye on my house and they would call my mum on regular occasions as well. Asking her about, you know, your son, what sort of involvement has he got, etc.

CP: So, why do you think they were following you this whole time?

BF: That’s the thing, I think the only reason why is because of the people that I know or have known. Which, really in this community that we’re living in is not very hard.

CP: And do you think a lot of it is to do with how physically active you are in terms of your boxing exercise?

BF: I think that’s mainly was it as well because I run a lot. I do boxing, I do a lot of weight training as well so I’m quite fit and they had bought that up on numerous occasions.

CP: Ok right.

BF: about why are you keeping this fit?

CP: So what was the next stage in this entire case in terms of you hearing about the police wanting you or you know that the security agencies were interested in you?

BF: Well from there, basically what’s happened is that I travelled to Pakistan and I didn’t get approached by anyone this time. Coming back, going or coming back. But whilst I was in Pakistan, when I did come back, my wife told me that MI5 took her into Ilford police station

CP: Did they arrest her?

BF: They basically said, “You’re gonna come with us.” And she went with them. I don’t think it was arrest.

CP: Did they explain to her rights that she wasn’t obliged to go with the police or MI5 if they did not arrest?

BF: No.

CP: Where were your children at the time?

BF: Basically my wife left. The children were with her and then she had to drop…she had to leave the children with mum and dad to go to Ilford police station.

They said you can meet us at this time at Ilford police station. So obviously she was scared and she didn’t know what’s going on and they haven’t got no numbers for no lawyers or nothing like this.

So she went to Ilford police station and a lady called Emma Bruce, she’s a Chinese lady. And basically she said, “Your…your husband’s gone to Pakistan. We know that he’s gone to Pakistan for terrorist activities etc.” And they said to her, “Look what has he gone there for? You tell us what you’ve got.” She basically told them the truth that look he’s gone there to see family. That’s it. And then basically what’s happened is..I can’t remember wha telse… they asked her about me keeping fit again. Saying that we know he likes to keep fit, why is this. Is this due to terrorism? And also, they…they asked her about is she’s all right for money and if she needs any money and stuff like this. That’s about it really.

CP: How did they offer her money?

BF: She said no straight away, she doesn’t need money or nothing. The reason why they offered her obviously was to win her on their side. And give her some money. And then on later occasion basically probably ask her, “look we can give you much more money than this. But what we need you to do is keep a log of what your husband does.”

Because they did ask her, “Look, what we’d like you do to is, when your husband comes back, just keep a log of what he does. What time he goes out and who he associates with.”

That’s what they asked her to do. And she said, “Oh, don’t tell your husband, obviously, about this meeting.” That’s it.

CP: And your wife did tell you that?

BF: Yeah, my wife did tell me. Yeah. And they did the same to my mother as well. They didn’t take her in.

CP: Can you tell us a bit more about that?

BF: They phoned her up and they said, “This is MI5. basically, we think your son is involved in terrorism activities.” Basically they were asking her why he went to Pakistan and what is your son like and if he is involved in any sort of terrorism activity, you know that you’ll need to tell us about it otherwise you could get into trouble for it as well. Yeah, so obviously my mum’s quite scared about that---

CP: How did it impact her?

BF: A lot. Basically, she’s… my mum’s I think she’s suffering from depression now. And she’s lost a lot of weight and etc. She’s really in a bad way.

CP: Because she worried about you?

BF: Yeah. And it’s affecting my relationship with my mother as well to the extent that she’s been saying, “You’ve been causing trouble all your life.” They’ve even turned her against me that she’s got to…she’s saying now look the reason that they’re on is because you’re doing something. What are you doing?

So, obviously what’s it. I know that I’m not doing nothing, but like..like people saying that there’s no smoke without fire. So that’s the way…

CP: Unfortunately that’s not true

BF: Exactly

CP: When was all this happening?

BF: This was happening, probably what year? 2007. and it’s just escalated now. To the extent that they’re pulling in… calling my friends in. At one occasion they called my friend in for a job interview. He’s a teacher. And he went in and it was MI5 to interview him. And they showed him files of me. And said, “what do you know about this guy?”

CP: And what did he say?

BF: He said, “He’s a good guy, just leave him alone.” And then he went on his way. So, it’s obviously something going on, but what’s going on I don’t know.

CP: When you returned from Pakistan, was there any indication that they were going to detain you?

BF: When I came back?

CP: Yes, when you returned?

BF: No. nothing happen when I come back. Just that I got a letter saying that I can go claim my money back this time. But they were using bully tactics. They said they sent me a letter saying that we’d just like to remind you that this is a civil matter and not a criminal matter and that on civil matters you cannot claim legal aid so you’ll have to pay for it all yourself. It end up costing me around £1500 in court fees to get the £6000 back. So, they were going out of their to say, you can’t do… we just want to remind you, you can’t claim legal aid and if you want to leave this matter, we will leave it as well, but we’ll keep your money.

CP: Right. I see. And then what was the next stage in this…

BF: From there, then that’s when it escalated.

CP: Ok

BF: The next stage was that they knocked on my door, six o’clock in the morning.

CP: and when was this?

BF: This was… a week from now. What is it now? It’s the

CP: It’s, no, the second of April.

BF: Second…so a week, eh…

CP: So the end of March 2009?

BF: Round about there, yeah.

CP: Ok. And so literally, it’s almost a period of two years

BF: Yeah.

CP: Between them coming to visit your wife, then speaking to your mother on the phone.

BF: Correct.

CP: and you know, them actually coming to you. Coming to your doorstep

BF: there was one incident before that.

CP: Ok.

BF: That happened was where I was due to go to Pakistan recently. Which is…beginning of March.

CP: yeah

BF: I was due to go to Pakistan and they called my mother up saying that, “Your son’s going to Pakistan, and if he does go”, if he goes to the airport we’re going to arrest him at the airport.” So we’d advice you to stop him.

CP: Right

BF: So she took my passport off me and said you’re not going no where.

CP: Ok.

BF: Because of this.

CP: So they had actually harassed your mum that way.

BF: Yeah

CP: Ok

BF: Now she’s gone loopy obviously and that’s made her go, get even more depressed and she’s been in such a bad way. And then from there, now. We come to now which is the end of March 2009, where they knocked on my door 6am and first of all four people come upstairs to the room. Four police officers.

CP: It wasn’t a raid. They knocked on the door?

BF: They did. They knocked on the door. Because the reason why the had to knock on my door was cause when they did come my kids were playing right by the door area.

Cause they were playing in that area. So they did knock on the door, quite hard you know. And then they came straight up. And straightaway said, “You’re on a control order as from now.”

CP: Ok.

BF: And we’re conducting a raid on your house.

CP: Right

BF: Now what is basically, they came straight up. Next thing I know, there’s like twelve people in my house. Now, one of the officers, detective’s was really rude yeah. Cause I said to him, “Right I’m gonna stay in my house and I want to go through the rooms with you, while you’re searching my rooms.” And he goes, “No. because of what happened to that other detective. And he goes, “I’ll let you come into the rooms with me if you’re ready to be handcuffed throughout the whole day.

CP: Right

BF: I said, “No problem,” I said. “I’ll do that.”

CP: Right

BF: Then he goes, “No, no, no, I don’t want that, I’m not having you in the room. I’ll have you handcuffed but outside the room.” I said, “No problem, I’ll do that.” He goes, “No, I’m not even doing that. You have to downstairs in this room while I’m searching the rooms.” I said, “Why?” He goes cause of what happened to detective. And then, was it… he was really being really rude. The went through all the photos and my wife was getting really upset because they were going through photos without her hijab on and going through her underwear drawer. Obviously, she was bursting into tears because like she said, “Look, I don’t want you lot to go through my underwear drawer. Can’t you get a woman detective” who was there but she didn’t. they didn’t even get her to go through it. And then was it…they said to me that they would give me a whole list of what they were taking. Then towards the end, when I asked for the list, they said, “We’re not giving you nothing. We don’t have to give you nothing.” They go “we’ve got the, we’ve got the Terrorism Law behind us and we can do whatever we like.” That’s what he said. I said, “Look, why do you lot becoming rude for now? You don’t have to be rude. I’m talking to you nicely. You said this, you said one thing to me and now you’re saying another thing.” I go, “why are you lying for?” And the guy I was speaking to was James. He was incharge of the whole investigation. He was the main man. And..

CP: Did he give a surname at all?

BF: No. Then basically what it is. I asked them to write something down. Saying that I’m not allowed to go through the rooms with them, in the rooms with them. And he did write it down. And he signed it with his special number or whatever they, they, they got. All throughout that there was someone sitting with me in the room talking to me, just trying to make general chitchat with me. Saying ,”Oh, what do you like to do? This, that and the other.” And where…at that point I said to them, “Look, I don’t like you lot, yeah,” and he said, “Why is that?” I said, “Would you like someone who’s basically taking your livelihood away from you? Ok, now what you’re doing to me doesn’t affect just me, it affects my children. And it affects my wife.” ---Are you gonna be nice to a person like that? I go, so don’t ask me to make you…because they were asking me to make them cups of teas. I go, don’t ask me to make you a cup of tea, because you’re not going to get a cup of tea. If you’re treating me like this. They go, it’s not us treating you like this, it’s the home secretary that’s ordered us to do this. I go, but you’re implementing the order. You don’t have to do it. They go…”but it’s our job.” I go, “you can find something else to do then,” I go, “because what you’re doing now, you’re victimizing and you should know this and don’t expect me to be nice to you. If it’s your job, I’m not going to be nice to you. So, then they did understand that. I think. They didn’t expect me to be nice to them.

BF: Then they took all my…they took everything. They took all my computers, they took like all..like certain dvds away as well. Pirate ones. They took them away. They…then the detective that was going…that rude detective…I can’t remember his name yeah…he basically brought up the case with the Forest Gate brothers who got shot. And saying they had child porn on their computer etc. I said that was another…it wasn’t even their… I go the computer was an old computer and whoever they bought it off the child porn was on there, it wasn’t…they weren’t looking at the child porn. I go you’s lot decided to shoot him. Then he goes, no we didn’t shoot him, he even admitted that. He basically went to grab the gun of the officer…yeah…and that’s how he got shot. I said, well, the tabloids didn’t say that. They go, the tabloids always lie.

CP: Yeah. Or the other way round.

BF: Yeah exactly. He was being really… he was really rude that guy. He was just… he was laying down on our floor like it was his house, doing what he wanted to do, etc. So they…they weren’t very nice.

BF: Yeah. And my daughter was asking me… she’s three and she was asking me, “Abu, why are they putting the tag on you?” they put a tag on me and she was asking why they doing this for. So..was it.. I just told her was it..they don’t want…they just don’t want Abu to go out that’s why.

CP: Ok.

BF: So now she’s got to the stage where she’s saying… she’s got to the stage where she’s saying …because certain times, the police officers have come to my house just to check if I’m there, etc and she says, “Oh they’re not nice people. And I have to go and sign in to police station one and two. And she’s saying, “Abu, why do you have to go in there for? Why don’t you just not go there?

BF: And this has made a knock on effect because I’ve had to take my daughter out of school cause we used to send her private school. And obviously I can’t afford to do that now because Im not on a salary that I was on. I’m not allowed to  work right now. So it ends up affecting everyone, it’s affected the whole family.

CP: How has it affected you personally?

BF: It’s affected me a lot because I have to see my kids suffer. I have to see my wife suffer and obviously myself, I’m suffering because I’m not allowed to work, Im not allowéd to go 2miles out of my, out of radius,  2 mile radius on me. I’m not allowed out of Barking. And that means basically, I can’t take my kids out, if they wanted to go out to Hyde Park or Regents Park or days out we can’t. that’s all stopped, we can’t go. We used to holiday every year. We can’t go on holiday. We were due to go to Istanbul this year, but we can’t go there now. And it’s affected me like financially wise it’s affected me a great deal. To the extent that I can’t do certain things, like we can’t buy certain things and basically they’ve had me into a prisoner. I can’t…I..I..I might as well be in prison. Because it would be better because then my… at least my wife wouldn’t  see what’s going on and it wouldn’t hurt her as much.

BF: Plus, obviously the other restrictions that they’ve got on us, like, can’t use the internet, my wife’s not allowed to have her phone on inside the house, Im not allowed to use the phone that goes onto internet, all of these stuff, and I’m innocent.

BF: That;s the thing. That, that’s the thing, I don’t understand how they can do this this to someone who hasn’t done nothing. I’ve been paying my taxes all this time and they’re doing this to me.

CP: Yeah.

BF: So It’s like a betrayal. The state’s just betrayed me.

CP: yeah, I know. It makes sense. You’ve got a tag now on your leg?

BF: Yeah

CP: Have you gotten used to the tag being there or is it something still quite alien to you?

BF: No, it’s something quite alien because it does hurt every now and then. Cause, was it…due to friction burns. So I have to… I  --- Vaseline on it etc, especially when I’m sleeping or leaning on it, or something like this.

CP: Yeah.

BF: The officer does keep telling me that, “You’ll get used to it.” I don’t trust what they say. I don’t even take it aboard.

CP: And how about your wife? How’s she been dealing with it?

BF: She’s not dealing with it very well cause right now she’s going through depression and she’s… the doctors have given her sleeping pills because she’s having problems sleeping at night and also..is it.. they’ve --- talking to a counselor right now about her problems and etc. Yeah, but she doesn’t even want to tell people about the control order because she thinks they’ll label her with something.

CP: Yeah.

BF: So she’s in a bit of a dilemma as well.

CP: Right.

BF: So it’s… it is a big problem because my wife’s..she’s a convert to the deen. She was,..prior to that she was Christian ..she hasn’t told her mum and dad because her mum and dad are Christian’s right now as well yeah. And they’re just going to say to her, “We told you so,” as well So, she just … this affects her a lot.

BF: Yeah, sorry… yeah so it’s affected her a lot in that sense and also on the sense that basically she’s used to living a certain lifestyle and she can no longer live that lifestyle because obviously the incomes’ not coming in. So, yeah it’s put a big strain on..on my family because she can’t… the only way she used to see her statements is on the internet she’s got internet banking and she can’t even do that now.

CP: Yeah

BF: because she can’t use it at home

CP: Why do you think this whole thing’s happening to you? I mean I know I asked that before, but now that you’ve been put on a control order, you know, do you think…do you think that this policy, these tools are being used legitimately or in order to help counter so sort of possibility of terrorism or do you think that there’s a more political motivation behind?

BF: I know 100% that because obviously I know that I’m innocent so I know a 100% that it’s… there’s no motive for it. The only reason why they’re doing it is, possibly to scare the community, send out a message and they’re doing it because of certain people that I know so obviously they probably … when they do take me off this, inshaAllah they do, they probably want me to stop meeting certain people .. so now they want certain sects of the community isolated and causing more hardship upon them brothers and sisters. So, I think that’s the reason why they’re doing it because they …they’re doing it because they can do it! There’s nothing stopping them from doing it, so why not? At the end of the day, they’re not gonna get no sleepless nights from knowing that Mr BF isn’t earning the amount of money that he was earning, and his family are going through hardship and he’s going through…he’s getting depressed and etc. because that doesn’t bother them.

CP: Yeah

BF: As long as they think national security is ok, then it’s all right, but to be quite honest with you, these control orders don’t prevent anyone from doing anything. Because the past shows us that people have run away from control orders, so it’s not hard to run away from control orders. If I wanted to do something, this control order wouldn’t be stopping me from doing it, so I don’t understand why they’ve put it on me. The only thing I can think of, they’re putting on it people that are innocent, so they can cause hardship on them. Then that’s the only reason, cause if I was to do something wrong, then arrest me and put me into prison

CP: Are there any thoughts? If you were able to say something to the public are there any thoughts that you would like to share with them about this situation?

BF: Only that it’s persecution, it’s not nice what I’m going through because it doesn’t just affect me and my family, it affects extended family as well. And they turn everyone against you. They turn even your neighbours. I don’t approach my neighbours because my neighbours have started to go funny and they don’t talk to me as they used to talk to me so you get isolated. Even by your own friends you get isolated. So, all I’d like to say is that what has happened to me and my family could happen to them tomorrow as well cause there’s nothing from stopping them…nothing stopping them from doing it to anyone else.